My Conversation with White Supremacists

(Trigger warning: This piece contains stories of Racism, bigotry, and hatred and may be traumatizing for some to read. Avoid if needed.)

I had a 35-minute conversation with these young men on Sunday. I was on my way home from Mazama after a lovely weekend in the mountains celebrating my anniversary with Brad. I dropped him off with his dad and brother for a boy’s trip, and was singing along to Taylor Swift when I saw these guys hanging gigantic signs — the size of king-size sheets — over the freeway overpass (just east of Fall City, WA).

The signs read…

“They want to replace US”

“Stop WHITE Genocide”

“White lives matter”

First of all…Are you fucking kidding me?

Secondly…“Who is THEY?”

I was so curious I took the next off-ramp and drove back to get a closer look and chat them up. I HAD to know what they believe and why they believe it. What were they so fearful about? What were they so mad about? Why were they wearing masks and all-black clothing?

I drove the 2 miles back to their exit, thinking of ALL the questions I wanted to ask them, and also realizing that the color of my skin was the ONLY reason I felt remotely safe approaching them.

I hoped they would be kinder than they looked.

I illegally parked my car and walked up cautiously but with a friendly smile to disarm them and hopefully avoid confrontation.

Most of them looked to be between the ages of 18 and 25.

I told them I didn’t want any trouble. I was just genuinely curious about what they believed and what inspired them to spend their Sunday out here.

They asked if I was “with them.”

“How about you tell me what you’re all about, and then I’ll let you know,” I told them.

“Do you think white lives matter?”

“Yes, I do. I also think that Black Lives Matter and Asian lives matter, and immigrants' lives matter…and all the lives matter. Do YOU?”

“We aren’t against them. We are just against white genocide.”

“Well, I can agree with that. I’m against genocide too. But, do you SEE white genocide happening around here? Is this a problem? Are white people in the USA being killed en mass based on their skin color?”

“Well, no. Not exactly.”

“Ok, so what are you worried about?”

That’s when they talked and talked and talked and talked. As quickly as they could. About all the things they wanted me to know.

And I listened.

Secret societies. Plots. The “Great Replacement Theory.” The Kalergi Plan. And so much more.

It was fascinating (and Disturbing). And so so sad. All I could think about was “How did these guys go from sweet little innocent baby boys to THIS?”

They told me about the “plot” dems have to replace white people.

“How exactly do you think Dems are going to do that? And why would they want to, even if they could?”

They told me Dems are trying to suffocate the middle class through economic depravity so we will have fewer kids.

It just got crazier from there.

When I told them, I believed that you should be able to marry and love and have kids with whomever you like. They did not actively push back but I could see from their expressions they were not “with me.” So I asked if THEY could ever love or marry a non-white person. They didn’t have to contemplate. It was an emphatic, “Oh no. Definitely not.”

I asked three different men the same question, just to be sure they were aligned in this ideology–not just one or two “crazies”. They all gave me the same answer.

I felt sick.

I asked them who they would be casting their vote for this November. (Not wanting to make any assumptions) and they quickly answered as if it were obvious, and I was some kind of idiot. “Trump,” they said proudly.

They went on to claim that part of the “plot” to reduce population growth among the white population was to push “gay” and “transgender” on people. I told them nobody had any interest in “pushing” anything. It’s more a matter of live and let live. Love and let love. All people have equal value and a right to their choices and freedom.”

But they weren’t having it. They were certain it was all part of a calculated plot to reduce the population of white people.

I asked about the “economic depravity” they spoke of…as a strategy to reduce white population growth.

they said it’s obvious if you look at the “fact” that “colored people” are taking all the white people's jobs.

Game on. Oh no you didn’t…

Now they were in MY lane. You want to talk facts…I KNOW these FACTS. Inside and out.

But before I jumped in with any such facts, I had a few more questions.

“What is your evidence? That white peoples jobs are being stolen?”

“All you have to do is look around at companies and see that there are people of color in leadership positions, “ they told me.

What the actual fuck?

…as if the only possible way any person of color could have gotten their position was through some sort of thievery, handout, or special accommodation.

“Do you think talent and brilliance only exists in white people?” It was an honest question. And they reluctantly gave me an honest answer, “well…no”.

Ok then…I thought maybe we were getting somewhere.

“Have you ever entertained the possibility that a person of color could have EARNED the job, through their experience, education, talent, and brilliance?”

“I guess…maybe”.

“You guess? Or, YES?”

“Yes.”

“OK, then why are you so certain that white people's jobs are being stolen? Why does that job ‘BELONG’ to you or me because of our whiteness? Why doesn’t that job belong to the most qualified person?

And that’s when it looked like their heads might explode. These guys looked at me like, “Hmm, I guess we never thought about that.”

They told me they believed in a meritocracy (the best person with the best qualifications should get the job). I agreed.

But again, I asked them if they could conceive of a non-white person BEING the most qualified.

They were quiet. It was interesting to watch them hesitate. Refusing to say the quiet part out loud, in the face resistance, and someone with “alternative facts”.

I told them that a “meritocracy” is good in theory, but history has shown that leaving it to a “meritocracy” is actually code for (not all but many in business)…to basically THINK they are promoting the most qualified candidate, but in reality, it often goes something like this…

“I’m going to promote the people who look like me, smell like me, are educated at the same institutions as me, grew up in the same neighborhoods as me, worked for the same companies as me, are the same gender as me, who I like and feel comfortable with.” That’s what people refer to as ‘the boys club’”… and the evidence is pretty clear that there IS a Boys Club.

“Not necessarily consciously,” I told them. “I’m not one to believe in conspiracy theories, so I don’t think people are rubbing their hands together somewhere in a back room asking how they keep the women and POC out,” I quipped, “but the data is pretty hard to discount.”

They had nothing to say.

But they also looked a bit confused. It was clear they could not imagine a scenario where a person of color could BE the best qualified.

That’s called racism.

I asked them if they’d seen the data on promotion velocity, sliced by race.

They had not.

I’m not entirely sure they understood the question.

So, I informed them there was a hot-off-the-press 70-page report by McKinsey that could break it down for them. I shared the brief synopsis and told them it could be confirmed with their very own eyeballs. The report showed — in brief — that it is STILL white men (and next to them, white women) who are being paid more and promoted more quickly, based on data from hundreds of USA companies (including many of the Fortune 500).

One guy looked so confused (and interested) that I thought he might actually be persuadable.

My heart ached.

I asked them if they thought there was ANY possibility that laws like affirmative action, anti-discrimination laws, and equal rights protections, could be meant to DRIVE greater equality and equitable access to jobs, rather than disrupt it.

Nope. That had not occurred to them either.

Why? Because someone had taught these guys that they were the true victims of racism. That they have something to fear.

Sounds like anyone else you know?

PEOPLE…

What are we going to do about this? No matter who wins this election, we have a really big problem on our hands. A runaway train of hatred, racism, and cult-like behavior.

You may think you do not participate in this. Certainly not like these guys, I’m sure.

But…

How many of YOU have sat by and listened to people in your own companies, families, or friend circles talk about “DEI hires” and said nothing to combat it? Maybe even agreed…” yeah, DEI is a bunch of BS.” Or “Yeah, It’s not fair” or “Trump is right. Illegals are killing our country and taking our jobs.”

Silence is agreement folks.

So DON’T stay silent when ignorant, culturized, brainwashed, people like this spew untruths and hate. Stand up. Fight back.

In March of 2021, secretary of Homeland Security, Alejandro Mayorkas declared domestic violent extremism “poses the most lethal and persistent terrorism-related threat to our homeland today.”

As Americans, we MUST understand this threat.

Now, a word to all the beloved Republicans out there…

These people are claiming your party leader as their leader.

How do you feel about that?

Are you doing ANYTHING to discount and discourage that?

Are you speaking up in disgust about that? If not, why not?

Through this conversation, I stayed calm and kind (not always my strong suit when I am this triggered, I’ll admit) — unlike the guy with a long gray ponytail who drove by at one point and screamed …“You fucking racists! You should be ashamed of yourselves!!”

I agreed but kept my cool. I figured my safety might depend on it.

And…

I did my very best to get in their shoes. I genuinely tried to understand the world through their eyes, for just a moment. They truly believed that the world was treating them unfairly, that their survival was at risk, and that people were out to get them.

I’d like to think that maybe, just maybe, some tiny part of their logic, fear, and certainty about that was cracked and exposed. But they seemed pretty far gone.

Then the COPS came. I said, “Oh shit. I really don’t want to end up in handcuffs in a paddy wagon with you guys. No offense but…”

One guy reassured me that would not happen.

If I had it my way, a paddy wagon WOULD HAVE picked them up and taken them straight to the de-cult-ifying center. Do those exist?

They should.

What I know is this…

When it was clear that Joe Biden was no longer fit to be our president, many of us Democrats screamed about it from the mountaintops and demanded better.

When people were shouting “defund the police” I made it clear that I did not agree with that. A better slogan, in my humble opinion, would have been, “Invest in Police reform” but I guess that is kind of boring, as slogans go.

And, open borders? No thanks. I prefer laws that support legal immigration. Be careful what you believe about us. Just like all of you are not the same, neither are we. I am pro-business, pro-capitalism (despite a family member implying that I’m a socialist — haha!), pro-human rights.

What do you stand FOR? And AGAINST?

Republicans, you cannot avoid the simple truth that your guy (whether you love him or hate him or somewhere in between) is stoking this hatred, fear, racism, misogyny, and anti-trans BS. And so much more.

Where is YOUR voice?

Why are you NOT shouting from the mountaintops and demanding better for yourself, your family, your party, and our country?

You cannot possibly believe that Trump is your best option. Do you?

It’s gross to watch so many of people stand by and claim that “all politicians are horrible and cannot be trusted” as if it is reasonable to compare Trump to ANY other politician this country has ever seen. It is not.

So please, stop it.

Republican leaders who were appointed by him, and served in the white house with him, have denounced him. Do you have the audacity to think you know him better than the 200+ Republican leaders who have now issued warnings (many of whom have been up close and personal with his dangerous behavior, rhetoric, and plans)?

Do you know that one of his closest people in the White House, press secretary Stephanie Grisham, admitted that he told her repeatedly, “If you say things enough times, people just believe you?”

Gone are the days of Reagan and Bush. Like it or not, a growing swath of your party has turned into an extremist party.

It is not a time to be silent. If you are a Republican, I hope you will get louder in denouncing these people who claim your party as their own. Don’t leave it to us. At the core, most of us reasonable, high-integrity people (of all political affiliations, generations, and racial identities) want the very same things for our country and our kids. Safety, Freedom. A strong economy. Equitable access to opportunity.

Let’s stop pretending it’s us against them.

It should be all of us against extremism. Full stop.

I know that the majority of you are decent people who “vote on policy”…but please, enough is enough.

If you are a Republican, who sees the danger in Trump (I know you’re out there) and hate to see the direction your party has taken, who still believes that character, decency, and respect for all people matter, why are you not being vocal about that?

Trump is the wind beneath the wings of these hateful groups? They feed on his hateful speech and fear-mongering.

It’s disgusting.

Speaking of disgusting…

Someone recently told ME that my political discourse online was “disgusting”. My first thought was…

Hmmm, I wonder if said person has ever expressed such outrage and disgust about some of the things Trump has said or done?

I wonder if they’ve ever spoken up about the threat of white supremacy groups like the one I met, and called THEM disgusting.

If not, that’s telling.

I don’t know, maybe “disgusting” is a term they reserve for people like me, who stand up, use my voice, and fight for what’s right.

What’s your plan here, republicans?

Like it or not, a larger and larger percentage of your party is looking, acting, and sounding like these misguided, brainwashed, young men. Somebody taught them this BS. What are you going to DO with your power to help them unlearn it?

And, please, just STOP with the “All politicians are awful liars” rhetoric. It is old and tired It doesn’t look good on you. It appears that‘s what y’all say to justify voting for a malicious narcissist.

But I’m not buying it. None of us are.

Do YOU believe what he tells you? That all politicians (besides himself of course) are awful, miserable people who cannot be trusted? That all climatologists are full of shit? That all journalists are dishonest and biased (except the ones who advocate for him)? That the election was stolen? That medical professionals and the WHO can’t be trusted? That people who speak out against him simply have a bone to pick? That nobody else has the power to save this country besides him?

Come on…

WAKE UP.

CHARACTER matters.

DECENCY matters.

OUR SAFETY matters.

Vote with your voice, your feet, and your VOTE!

“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.”

(Attributed to Edmund Burke, including by John F Kennedy in a speech in 1961).

By, Mitch Shepard